View source for Talk:Pre-Crisis to Post Crisis Transition

I threw the data unto this page to help me figure out how to categorize some upcoming cover images. As we have touched on before, there is definitely not a clean break between the two eras, so my plan is to  replace the issue descriptions here with notes that help identify which era an issue belongs to. Once I get it straight in my own head, if the resulting page is useful, perhaps we'll keep it. It probably would not need nearly as many issues as I have included, but I wanted to cut the largest swath possible to make sure I didn't miss anything (basically, I ended it with the Pocket Universe stories, firmly in the Post-Crisis era).

A few questions:

#Do we consider the Crisis series itself Pre or Post Crisis? Both? Is there a particular point in the story that we consider transitional? (At present its categorized as a Pre-Crisis mini-series, and perhaps that should stand). 
#The first mention of Crisis events within a Legion storyline that I can recall is in LSHv3 #16, in which Brainy is mourning Kara's death (published a few weeks after she died in Crisis #7), but per LSHv3 #18, the Time Beacon in the Time Institute prevented the Crisis events from affecting the 30th Century, or at least within a certain radius of the Time Institute. (Which is why Brainy can remember that she existed). The last panel of #18 says to stay tuned for Crisis #12. Where do we draw the era line - after her non-existence catches up with the timeline?
#I believe we drew the existing Pre/Post line in the LPH because of the events in the Legionnaires Three miniseries. I'll have to re-read them, but if they contain references to the Crisis, does this mean they are Pre or Post?
#If a storyline in a regular Legion series begins before the Crisis and ends after the Crisis is referenced in another Legion story, do we consider that entire storyline to be Pre-Crisis? Not sure if this situation exists, but as I re-read the issues I'd like to keep this possibility in mind. In particular, I'm thinking of the Tales series, which published new stories simultaneously with the stories in the v3 series. They were written so that the v3 stories could be read as reprints a year later, but wether events are supposed to be serial or in parallel I'll have to go back and check.
#I am assuming that for the Tales series, if it reprints a Pre-Crisis story, it should be considered Pre-Crisis, etc.
#I believe there was also a transition in the Who's Who issues, before which the descriptions refer to Pre-Crisis details, and after which the new histories are described. Will require some research.
#Superman 423 and Action 583 are the last Pre-Crisis Superman stories, but were published well after the Crisis was finished. There may be a few more one-offs like this.

Any thoughts you may have would be greatly appreciated. You may have already put much more thought into this than I have, but I need a scorecard to help me keep things straight. Once we have one, it would probably be useful for other users as well. -- [[User:Craigopher|Gopher]] 10:45, 14 May 2007 (PDT)

:It's a fuzzy line. There are two DCU-as-a-whole transition points, the first "hard", the latter "soft":
:#The end of ''Crisis on Infinite Earths'' #10. After that, the universe is Rebooted. The problem with this as a marking point is that most important characters are still in their Pre-Crisis forms - within CoIE #11 & 12, for instance - even amongst those who weren't there at the Dawn on Time and thus still remember the multiverse are this point - you have Luthor, Brainiac and several of the villains in explicitly Pre-Crisis form; while the DoT characters still remember the multiverse at the end and some characters who shouldn't still exist in some way.
:#The second line is fuzzier, and nominally relates to events in ''All-Star Squadron'' and ''Legend of Wonder Woman'', but this isn't directly relevant to the timing of when the new status quo is reflected in other comics (I '''think''' ''Wonder Woman'' #1 is the last "first Post-Crisis status quo" comic, pub Nov 1986, dated Feb 1987; eleven-and-a-half months after CoIE #12, thirteen-and-a-half after CoIE #10...). I suspect that ''Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow'', on this measure, is the single "last" Pre-Crisis Legion story, but that isn't necessarily reflective of the ongoing LoSH comic.
:On that, I'd have to ask when the last time something which was changed or deleted by the Crisis was shown or referenced in an ongoing LoSH comic (or, if later, a direct Crisis event affecting the LSH). That's probably the best single marker - which in turn is probably Supergirl's existence or otherwise.
:Reprints, obviously, have no value for this, be they in ''Tales of the LosH'' or otherwise - if they did, then the ongoing Archives series would present a problem ;). If they reprint a Pre-Crisis issue, they get marked as such and we move on.
:I believe that, while the "Titans" Baxter series took a time-jump forward and the "Tales" series filled in the gap until it started reprints, the LoSH solution was just to end the new ''Tales of the LoSH'' with someone beginning to review recent events. - [[User:Reboot|Reboot (SoM)]] <small>''[[User talk:Reboot|talk page]]''</small> 12:05, 14 May 2007 (PDT)

::The Tales issues took place concurrently with the v3 issues - there are some stories that make references to what's going on in the other book, Characters X and Y are on planet Z, that sort of stuff.

::I don't remember what happened in "Legionnaires Three" which was published shortly after the Crisis, but next DCU-wide miniseries after Crisis was "Legends", in which Cosmic Boy and Night Girl went back in time to investigate the changes to the time stream. If L3 isn't near the beginning of the post-Crisis era, then Legends should be.

::It did take a while for the new single universe to settle out, as seen (among various places) in DC Comics Presents, where Superman teamed with the likes of the Charlton version of Captain Atom.

::The Crisis itself, I believe, should be considered "pre-Crisis". Everything before issue 10 (the big reboot, no pun intended) is clear. What I wonder is where "Man of Tomorrow" fits in, since it's the end of the Earth-1 Superman and Legion even though Earth-1 was compressed in Crisis #10.
::-- [[User:Mgrabois|Omnicom]] 20:29, 14 May 2007 (PDT)

:::Essentially, between CoIE #11 and Man of Steel #1/Batman #404 (B:Y1 pt 1)/Legend of Wonder Woman #4/All-Star Squadron #60/No doubt some other issues of other series that don't occur to me, the stories are set on Earth-Transition, or Earth-"1+" - where all the characters remained in Pre-Crisis forms on the merged Earth [in-continuity, this was explained by a gynoid called Mechanique (ASQ #60) and the Greek goddess Aphrodite (LoWW #4) temporarily "holding back" the full effects of the Crisis. The other two issues are simply the debuts of Post-Crisis Superman and Batman]. ''Whatever Happened...'' is the last Superman story on "Earth-Transition".
:::NB: ''History of the DCU'' is another "Earth-Transition" thing, rather than genuinely Post-Crisis. - [[User:Reboot|Reboot (SoM)]] <small>''[[User talk:Reboot|talk page]]''</small> 11:17, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

::::Well, unless we want to create yet another era, we will need to categorize the Earth-Transition issues/images as either Pre or Post Crisis. Since the characters in the transitional period are aware of the events of the Crisis, I would consider that to be Post-Crisis. The Crisis #10/#11 divide seems like a good one to me, with any issues later in which the events of the universe reboot or its after-effects are referenced also falling into the Post-Crisis category. Sounds like we should have a page similar to the Morduverse page in which the transition period is discussed. I think also that the LPH-like entries I have on this page should eventually turn into a Chronology/Crisis page.  --[[User:Craigopher|Gopher]] 07:21, 16 May 2007 (PDT)

:::::I would say the exact opposite - the Crisis is only over when Supergirl, Huntress, the E2 Robin, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, etc are erased and the E1 Superman and Wonder Woman are changed into their Post-Crisis versions.

:::::The Crisis goes in stages:
:::::#The Anti-Monitor starts killing universes (pre-CoIE #1)
:::::#Monitor dies, Earths-1 and 2 pulled into the Monitor's "netherverse", Red skies, temporal anomalies (CoIE #3-4)
:::::#The remaining three universes are thrown into the "netherverse" (CoIE #6)
:::::#The remaining five universes are stablised.
:::::#Fight at the Dawn of Time, multiverse retroactively eliminated, anomalies (two Supermen, two Wonder Women, two Dick Graysons, E2-Huntress, EP-Superboy, various other Pre-Crisis style characters) remain as almost all characters remain in Pre-Crisis form (CoIE #10-11)
:::::#Anomalies finally eliminated, '''Crisis ends''' (ASQ 60, LoWW4)
:::::#Post-Crisis Superman, Wonder Woman debut, new origins for Batman and various other characters take effect. Supergirl, Superman's career as Superboy, etc Gone. (various, including MoS #1, WW1, etc).
:::::[[User:Reboot|Reboot (SoM)]] <small>''[[User talk:Reboot|talk page]]''</small> 08:57, 16 May 2007 (PDT)