Talk:Disambiguation Table

Superboy/Kal-El

I noticed that the Superboy link in the Pre-Crisis section of the main page is [[Superboy/Kal-El/Pre-Crisis]]. Just to clarify, should the links on the Diambiguation table be :

• Superboy/Kal-El/Pre-Crisis
• Superboy/Kal-El/Post-Crisis
• Superboy/Kal-El/Glorithverse

Since Kon-El only appears in the Post-Zero Hour era, why the need for distinction of Kal-El in the other eras? I get it with Invisible Kid, because both Lyle and Jacques versions appear in several eras. Not sure I understand the reasoning when there is only one in an era.

See Kid Quantum, since it's the same thing. Pre-C was Earth-1, long-time member and grew up to become Superman, PostC was Pocket U, long time member and died as Superboy, Glorithverse was a member for a fortnight and died as PostC. Kon, OTOH, is just Superboy/Kon-El.

You disambig by character if need-be, and THEN AND ONLY THEN do you disambig by era if by era you need to diambig. - Reboot (SoM) talk page 18:43, 15 July 2006 (PDT)

OK, I think I got it now. Character, then era. I should be a bit more on track now, but I'm sure there's a few more quirks I haven't encountered yet. We might want to put a bit more of that kind of reasoning into a Legion Wiki page, if there isn't one I haven't found - one more thing to do... -- Gopher 19:09, 15 July 2006 (PDT)

Fine - Legion_Wiki:Disambiguation. And, yes, I changed some stuff in the process before you ask. - Reboot (SoM) talk page 20:44, 15 July 2006 (PDT)

I think this page will be very useful, and I know that I will be referring back to it in the future. Hadn't thought about pre-emptively creating redirect links. However, I just realized I may have to go back and change quite a few of my links in light of point #4. I had always assumed there was one.

Alphabetization

It looks like the table is currently sorted by (1) Post-ZH code name, if any (e.g. Chameleon Boy), then (2) civilian name by first name, if no code name (e.g. Chuck Taine). This has the unfortunate effect of, for example, placing Phantom Girl at the top of the list as Apparition, right behind Andromeda. Instead, I suggest alphabetizing all characters by surname regardless of code name (e.g., Allon, Anderson, Ardeen, etc.) like you'd see in a phone book, since you've already got the civilian names on the left side.

Of course, that would also mean disambiguation pages for "Imra", "Ardeen", and "Ardeen, Imra" to redirect to "Saturn Girl" or whatever.

Also, do the SW6 Batch get their own column? They're more or less separate characters, kinda sorta. -- User:mgrabois 10:45, 16 July 2006 (PDT)

I envision creating an alternate page sorted by each of the columns, with the ability to switch between them by clicking on the column header. Rather than update each of these pages as each character is built, it will be easier to build one version covering all currently-known members and then making copies and adjusting for the extra pages. The Post-Zero Hour column was given priority because it currently has the most links that are actually live. I think we can have all the other members added within the next copule of days, and then the alternate sortings created thereafter. As a first step, we could create a second page sorted by surname, building both pages up until they are complete, and then add on the versions for the other eras.-- Gopher 06:39, 16 July 2006 (PDT)

Frankly, Gopher, I think that multiple versions of this page would just be redundant, and may even cause problems with synchronisation. Overall, a bad idea. Maybe if someone could find a script so that you could click a button and sort this single page by column, but otherwise it's not worth persuing. - Reboot (SoM) talk page 10:52, 16 July 2006 (PDT)

Actully, it would be a maintenance nightmare, even if there weren't technical problems with it. The question then goes back to what order to sort them in. The surname suggestion makes sense in one respect, but most people are going to be looking for Shrinking Violet, not Salu Digby, as was pointed out before. We could also sort by the most commonly occuring version of the name, so Phantom Girl would win out over Apparition. Any way we do it, someone's going to be unhappy. I would suggest we weigh in favor of whatever would be easiest to use for the first time visitor who isn't familiar with how the site is set up. All in all, the table is meant to be a tool to make finding all of the various incarnations more quick and easy - the original disambiguation pages are still the primary authority for any given character. However, whatever final version we do come up with, similar tables would be useful, such as a table which shows first appearances across eras. Necessary? No, but having the information all in one place is one more useful way to use the Wiki, and we can leverage the the work from table in creating the next. Gopher 12:52, 16 July 2006 (PDT)

As for the SW6 batch, I agree with you, but we're pushing the limits as to how many columns will fit comfortably on the page. As smaller resolutions, they are pretty cramped. We could

1. Make the font smaller
2. List both the regular and SW6 in the same column
3. Combine the two animated columns into one, listing both together

-- Gopher 06:39, 16 July 2006 (PDT)

Put them in the Glorithverse column - at present, they're not expected to get their own pages, just sections on the Glorithverse pages, after all. Shrinking the font = bad, and the new cartoon isn't a continuation of their appearances in S:TAS and JLU. - Reboot (SoM) talk page 10:52, 16 July 2006 (PDT)

OK, don't shoot me, but...

Something that I have been wondering about is the usefulness of having a specific Post Crisis version for every member archetype. Although Superboy's origin took place because of the Trapper's involvment and all of the Smallville/20th Century stories took place in the Pocket Universe, the Legionnaires memories of them are the same, other than the Supergirl involvement. Supergirl no longer existed, Kid Psycho is now dead, and unbeknownst to the Legionnaires, the Time Trapper was manipulating any time travel.

But when one compares the text of future, yet-to-be-written pages on the Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis versions of Lightning Lad or Shadow Lass or Blok, what exactly will be different? The section on their memories of Supergirl? Name, origin, history, memories - everything is the same, except for the Supergirl aspect. There would be a dramatic impact on the Supergirl entry and Brainiac 5, but not too much else. Yes, there are fundamental differences between the two timelines, but when it comes to creating material for the Wiki, it is essentially the same between the two. For those few characters for which there is a dramatic difference, we could simply add a Pre/Post Crisis explanation section in their character page, with links to larger articles about the phenomenon in general.

Remembering back to when the Crisis was actually happening, it was barely a blip on the overall Legion storyline. I didn't even read the Crisis series at the time, and it made no difference to me as a reader. I knew in general that something was happening, and Brainy was mourning Kara's death, but overall, Levitz continued to write without regard to it. A couple of years later, the PU was introduced to explain why. From 1958 to 1985, Supergirl appeared in fewer stories than almost every other Legionnaire, and even then generally as a sub-plot for Brainy, so retconning her out had minimal impact. The Pre/Post combined storyline coheres all the way through Magic Wars - if you skipped the couple of issues that specifically mention the Crisis and the PU, you would never know it happened or that anything was different.

What would be the loss to the site or the confusion created if we combined these two eras? In fact, by breaking them out, I feel we are adding unnecessary complexity. Combining would simplify the linking a bit, and we would avoid a lot of duplicated material. 99% of the material remains to be created for these two eras. The only article under the Post Crisis category, the Legion Constitution, is also categorized as Pre-Crisis, BECAUSE IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME for the two periods. Are we going to do that for scores of pages?

If the two were combined, there would be one Supergirl page for the combined time period, and as of now there will be... one Supergirl page across the two periods. The Superboy page would need a section about the PU, Kid Psycho gets a note about his death, Brainy has some additional material. A page comparing the two timelines, pointing out specific stories that would differ would be interesting, but I'm having a hard time imagining too much else beyond pages specifically about the Crisis.

So, am I crazy? Am I completely missing the point? For those who don't agree, I'd be interested to see examples of a character page written for both Pre and Post Crisis and how exactly the two differ (not Supergirl, Superboy or Brainy). IF we did combine the two, we could refer to the era as "original," "classic," "silver age"...whatever. I just think its a possibility we should look at. --Gopher 12:10, 16 July 2006 (PDT)

My two pesos: the post-Crisis Legion is close enough to the pre-Crisis Legion for the most part that you can get away with a single version. For those (characters, situations, history, artifacts, etc.) that are significantly affected, you can have a page for each version, while for the rest you can have a redirect link from one to the other depending on which one is the "default". --User:Mgrabois 13:03, 16 July 2006 (PDT)

I'll agree with MG here. Not all pages will need seperate versions for PreC/PostC, but Superboy and some other stuff certainly will. - Reboot (SoM) talk page 13:06, 16 July 2006 (PDT)

I think the way that Dawnstar is currently listed is suitable for most Pre/Post-Crisis members. Even Superboy, at the very crux of the issue, would have very little difference between versions. You could just as easily have a Post-Crisis section in a combined version for him, although I can live with two different pages. The Dawnstar method works well from the perspective of creating the table, because we still break out the two columns separately, so whether a character has two versions or not, we simply list the appropriate link in each. And we can set up redirects for any anticipated "incorrect" versions that might be used by someone not familiar with the pattern. If at any time we do determine that a previous one-page character should be split into two, we simply make the change.

Also, I like that Dawnstar is simply "Dawnstar", and only when there is a difference in Glorithverse does the link get longer. While I wont push to do this for the rest of the characters, I wouldn't mind if we did. We could use the simple form for the first version, whatever era it occurs in, and only stipulate the name/era/etc when a distinction needs to be made. Could be confusing to contributors as they get used to the system, but having the DisAm table pulling everything together on one page makes it easier to figure out. --Gopher 11:19, 21 July 2006 (PDT)

No. I've left Dawnstar as it is for now because its' not finished, and Grey will not even consider finishing it if its' not, so an actual decision has to wait until either he's done or someone else finishes it for him. If there is (to be) more than one page with the same root name, all the equivalent pages need to be at the same level of disambiguation. - Reboot (SoM) talk page 17:17, 21 July 2006 (PDT)

Problem which just occured to me

Kon-El. Teen Titans retconned his history to hell and back, at least as bad as most of the Glorithverse changes, for instance, and worse than some. And because he was involved with the Legion both before AND after this we can't just set a cutoff of YJ55 or whatever, and so, I'm not sure what to do with him. - Reboot (SoM) talk page 13:13, 16 July 2006 (PDT)

I haven't followed the stories over in TT, so can't help much. What issues were they? I might pick them up to see what's up with it. --Gopher 11:17, 21 July 2006 (PDT)

White Witch/Mysa

Mysa appeared in the Post-Zero Hour era without the White Witch name. There is currenty a wanted page for her simply called Mysa. Does anyone see the need to use Mysa/Glorithverse? At the moment, I am not aware of another era that has used Mysa rather than White Witch. Its possible that she'll show up in Post-Infinite Crisis, although the way they are developing things, White Witch would be more likely to fit the current pattern. If not, we can stay with simply Mysa for Glorithverse. --Gopher 06:32, 19 July 2006 (PDT)

Default *GLORITHVERSE* pages to "Real Name/Glorithverse"?

Couple of thoughts:

1. The adult Legionnaires and ex-Legionnaires, in the then-"present-day" Glorithverse events, mostly went without codenames - the exceptions, like Valor, can be treated as such the way Laurel Gand, etc are currently (intended to be) treated as such.
2. It saves using the LotRun codenames.
3. It simplifies the SW6 mess to an extent, since it means they're not being put under the "wrong" codenames on the pages.

Earlier and later eras to be treated as-now.

Thoughts? - Reboot (SoM) talk page 04:08, 21 July 2006 (PDT)

Works for me - can apply to all versions of the character within that period, and as you say, there are long periods during which they didn't use codenames. Of all the eras, Glorithverse makes the most sense to do this. --Gopher 04:34, 21 July 2006 (PDT)

What's in a name?

Was there a conscious decision to not show on this table that Jacques Foccart is the second Invisible Kid or that Jazmin Cullins was the second Kid Quantum? In something like "Who's Who", Lyle and Jacques would be listed as Invisible Kid I and Invisible Kid II, for example.

And since this table looks like it tries to list all of the Legionnaires from that era, will you be adding the ones not here (e.g., Five Year Gap and Khunds)? There's only been one Gates, Gear, Kinetix, Monstress, Thunder, XS, etc., so their presence on the table can't be to disambiguate different versions. -- Omnicom 21:15, 26 August 2006 (PDT)

The table itself is Craigopher's baby, I'm not that bothered about the 5YGers, etc.

As for the no-numerals, I pushed for that. I don't know about DC off the top of my head (Although I seem to recall them saying "Hourman (Rick Tyler)" and "Hourman the Android" on their website SF section before it changed) but, Marvel dropped the Roman Numerals thing for their revived handbooks, and I agree with it. It opens up all sorts of crap - is Post-ZH Cos a numeral other than I for being Post-ZH? What about if non-Legion characters used a name first? Or Adult Legion-only characters? Too many worms, and it's hard to be consistant. Easier just to drop it and write "Kid Quantum (Jazmin Cullen)", etc. - Reboot (SoM) talk page 21:48, 26 August 2006 (PDT)

There is no intention of leaving out the 5YGers, just haven't been added yet. I added all of the characters that I needed for my own work on mainly Pre-Crisis pages, adding in the most prominent characters from other eras to round things out. Idealy the table should display everyone who might need disambiguation, although that would be a VERY big table. Including everyone who has ever been a Legionnaire is more realistic, although one-issue characters such as Anti-Lad are of questionable value for inclusion. By all means, feel free to add any that you see fit. We could also include the Subs, Lallors, Wanderers, Xanthus, Dev-Em, Workforce, etc - would you like to see the table expand to include all 30th Century heroes? Pros and Cons?

Also, I've been thinking that we should create a separate table for villains, to distingish different versions of Glorith, Universo, etc. There is not generally as much need for disambiguation for non-hero characters, but it does exist. Any thoughts? --Gopher 04:40, 27 August 2006 (PDT)