Talk:Puppet Planetoid

Here's another one I'm never sure how to handle. The Puppet Planetoid was used twice Pre-Crisis in "throwaway" appearances, and then showed up decades later Post-Crisis as the place Blok was killed (immediately preceding the Mordruverse story). In the Glorithverse, the only part that might have changed could have been the Satan Girl thing but we never read anything specifically about how that was rebooted for the Glorithverse. So we've got one location that exists essentially unchanged across three eras. I assume I don't need a /Post-Crisis modifier, but can this entry go in three different categories of Pre-Crisis planets, Post-Crisis planets, and Glorithverse planets? -- Omnicom 17:31, 25 July 2007 (PDT)

This is true of basically every Pre-Zero Hour entry, with the exception of the Kryptonians, Mon-El and a very few other items. Most Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis and Glorithverse entries, once created, would basically have identical information. There are very few items for which we have actually gotten to the point of creating three or even two of the entries yet, but in a couple of instances, we simply created the Pre-Crisis one and then redirected the Post-Crisis entry to the Pre-Crisis page. If you look at the Dawnstar/Pre-Crisis page, it is categorized as Pre, Post and Glorithverse. Legion Constitution/Pre-Crisis also has the Post category.

Insistence on this "over-erafication" is one of Lightning Lad's sacred cows, and I don't think its likely to be changed anytime soon. As you have probably noticed, he and Reboot are much more focused on the Post-Zero Hour material, where making a distinction from other eras makes complete sense. Since neither of them ever work on Pre/Post/Glorithverse pages, they don't really "feel" the absurdity of making the distinction. I would just create the Pre-Crisis version and add all appropriate categories. If you like, create Post and Glorithverse pages which forward to the Pre-Crisis page, but its simpler to just omit them. -- Gopher 04:00, 26 July 2007 (PDT)

Well, **I'M** certainly focused on post-ZH material, since it's the only era I'm significantly interested in. Not true of LL, certainly, though - although he hasn't been around here much.

I think I've said this before, but the only "demand" I made when helping to set this up was that postboot stuff not be on the same pages as "other" stuff. I wasn't the one who pushed to separate the three preboot demi-eras, although there was pushing for them - especially Glorithverse - to be separated, as a reaction to the way the Help File rewrote bios to reference Valor & Laurel Gand in place of Mon-El, Superboy and Supergirl.

As I see it (and feel free to correct me, I'm shaky on some of this):

• When someone or other finally gets to the pre-Crisis/post-Crisis/Glorithverse bios, as I understand it, nearly all of them will include some sort of reference of that order, no (except the late-on members)?
• From what I understand recent developments to be (not having read the books or interviews in question), the Lightning Saga team is (a) based on pre-Crisis (b) doesn't include post-Crisis or Glorithverse material (c) is basically an alternate post-Crisis for that reason, and (d) Geoff Johns has been making noises about this version appearing regularly somewhere. If you incorporate that onto the pre-Crisis pages, you need to start sectioning up the page with "this counts for this/this doesn't" disclaimers since the progression becomes non-linear. And, if not, you're continuing the "over-erafication" by adding a sixth (comics) set of pages.

Comments? - Reboot (SoM) talk page 11:58, 26 July 2007 (PDT)

I'm not entirely certain what you mean in your first bullet by "will include some sort of reference of that order". Can you re-word your question? This may or may not be what you are getting at, but I think that the least messy solution would be to have a single bio page for a given Legionnaire containing all pre-Zero Hour data. This single page would include clearly marked sections for Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis and Glorithverse events IF there are any differences to note. For many characters, the only impact of the eras changing was that they got older and were involved in further stories. For those characters majorly impacted by the era changes (Superboy, Supergirl/Andromeda, Mon-El/Valor, Brainy due to his involvement with Supergirl), separate pages are perfectly appropriate, although you could potentially still handle the differences on one page. If one of the major reasons for the current structure was fear of actions like Valor data replacing Mon-El data, that can just as easily be avoided on a single page with clearly marked "era" sections.

I am not suggesting getting rid of eras altogether, just a lessening of their impact, as the structure is unnecessarily complicated for the first three eras. I would still support having separate pages for Post-Zero Hour and Post-Infinite Crisis bios, because those characters are clearly different - different names, different codenames, different origins, even different powers. The majority of the pre-Zero Hour characters are identical from Adv 247 up to the events of Zero Hour. The question you raise in your second bullet further emphasizes to me that we should simplify where we can, and disambiguate where we really need to. We don't know how things will eventually be explained for the multiple Legions currently being portrayed, but if the "Classic" Legion we have seen is clearly separate from what we currently call Pre/Post-Crisis, we will need the sixth era that you mentioned. This could at least be alleviated if we simplified or de-emphasized distinctions between the current Pre/Post/Glorith eras. (By the way, I'd say you are fairly accurate in you assessment of how the Lightning Saga seem to fit in, although it may be a good year before we really know - maybe Supergirl 21 & 22 will shed more light).

If people were "pushing" for the demi-eras to be separated, where are they now? Why don't they create some frelling bios themselves so that they can see how some of the inherent issues? If they don't have the time or the inclination to contribute, or at least express an opinion in the current conversation, I don't value their opinions as highly. That includes our absentee landlord. This same type of thing happens in the corporate setting all over the world - decisions are made at a high level about a system or a set of procedures without input from the people who will actually be utilizing the product of those decisions. Oftentimes, unwanted consequences of those decisions are not apparent until someone begins acting within their constraints. In this case, I'm sure the current structure seemed like a great idea and a way to avoid data being replaced. In practice, I think it needs a bit of tweaking, particularly if DC throws us what will amount to a sixth era for our current structure.

I don't know how many people actually read these page discussions, but I'd like to open this conversation to a greater level of input than we typically have (i.e more than our three daily contributors). Can we stir up some interest outside the wiki and direct them here, or perhaps move the conversation to another place? If there are considerations that I am not aware of, I'm more than happy to listen to and consider them, as long as others are willing to consider the possibility that changing the current structure might be better overall for the wiki. -- Gopher 10:24, 27 July 2007 (PDT)